Curse

Longasc · Aug 23, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

A friend of mine returned after half a year. He was not playing much for one year.

He is lacking so many elites it is not funny. He has to get tons of Balthazar Faction to unlock skills for his heroes. He has to equip his heroes and all that...

He also has to get used to the new skills - many skills got so much nerfed and buffed, he has a lot to re-learn.

And he has no Kurzick rank nor have most of his chars Sunspear ranks at all, only 2 are through Elona by now.

He also struggles with money. He can buy some upgrades for little money thanks to the huge deflation of prices, but that was it.

No, GW is no longer as casual as it was. And the THREE (!) new pve title tracks will not make it more casual friendly either. Some have skills that are simply a must have, Pain Inverter and Asuran Scan are just awesome.

Epinephrine · Aug 23, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Agree with the OP.

The game is evolving to give grinders more stuff to do (like titles etc.)

That's fine, it's nice to have goals.

Making PvE benefits for grinding is what GW wasn't supposed to be about. Remember the slogan? "Skill, not time spent"

Well, LB rank is +5% damage per level, and +40% damage is a pretty darn noticeable bonus. It takes a fair bit of effort to get r8 LB; my ritualist (for example) has r2 from playing the game through, and has protector of Elona and a few masters in hard mode too, IIRC.

Sure, my main got r8 in it, but it was a lot of grind, and while I think that grind should exist, perhaps with snazzy titles or new skins for weapons/armours/emote flashing that making the PvE part of the game grind based is a mistake.

My Sweet Revenga · Aug 23, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Last I checked faction farming at lut did require a bit of skill to do it quickly and consistently.... especially mu....

Anyways, a lot of the PVE only skills, you don't even have to grind very high up their respective title chains to make them effective. They're already pretty good skills even at the lowest tier. So just grind enough to be able to unlock the skills, and leave it at that. Even regular skills you have to obtain enough gold to BUY them from the skill trainers in the fist place. Just fool your mind into thinking the grinding is actual regular gameplay.... and everything will be blissfully fine :b

Shadowspawn X · Aug 23, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I disagree with several points that the OP has presented. His issue is he has too many characters. When a person has 10 characters and considers himself a casual player it doesn't add up. I played one character as a casual player because I wanted to experience the whole game and I knew I couldn't do it with a zillion toons. After eight months of play when I had every skill in the game on my ranger and fow armor/spider and did every quest and mission in the game. Then I decided to make another character. After over two years playing GW. I still only have 3 characters. It is unreasonable to create 10 characters and whine about not being able to max them all out. Anet gave 4 slots in the beginning not six, thats because the game was not intended to be maxed out by a toon in a short period of time. I do share some concern about the amount of grind in the game because the grind tends to be non-creative and has no entertainment value. However, that issue needs to be addressed on a stronger more solid argument than someone stating they don't have time to max out 10 toons, that simply does not have any credibility because its a unrealistic expectation..

wilderness · Aug 23, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

I'll say this once then I'll leave this thread and not look back...

Bottom line: Hardcore players *should* be rewarded for their extra efforts. Hardcore players will always have more items/loot/skills etc than the casual gamer, but that's never been an issue with GWs as all the benefits to grinding are purely aesthetic.

So our 'reward' for playing like manics is a slight buff to some PvE (the magic acronym) only skills.. wow, I can see how two seconds/points of damage/etc.. is worth all of these tears..

Point is, the increase give by SS/Lb are extremely minimal and PvE is not a contest so it doesn't matter, regardless.

-

If anet were implementing elite areas for those with full titles, pvp skills, or extra dmg weapons and such, I could understand the uproar....

Some of you guys expect everything handed to you on a plate, and when those of us that play(ed) this game like a religion finally get something to show for it (something ever so slight in the grand scheme of it all), you throw your toys out of the pram.

Lots of damp shoulders about these days...

Vamis Threen · Aug 23, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

A friend of mine returned after half a year. He was not playing much for one year.

He is lacking so many elites it is not funny. He has to get tons of Balthazar Faction to unlock skills for his heroes. He has to equip his heroes and all that...

He also has to get used to the new skills - many skills got so much nerfed and buffed, he has a lot to re-learn.

Longasc, if the game didn't change at all during the last 6-12 months, would you still be playing? Would it have kept your interest? Your friend doesn't sound like a casual player, more like a non-existent player. Isn't he enjoying all the great new stuff? Brand new elites and regular skills, diverse and exciting builds? And he still has all this tasty goodness ahead of him - we shouldn't pity your friend, we should envy him.

TabascoSauce · Aug 24, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Keep in mind - the grinders are the ones who are asking for more challenge in PvE.

Am I the only one that sees the irony between watching the grinders scream how PvE is too easy, and how ANet rewards them with say, +100 armor, party-wide?

This is a bad idea.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

wetsparks · Aug 24, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

I'll say this once then I'll leave this thread and not look back...

That line was so good I think I will use it myself. People like to bring up Skill > Time. Guess what, it is actually Skill = Time. Do you think Michael Jordan became the greatest basketball player of all time by not putting in any time? He was cut from his High School basketball team because he wasn't good enough, instead of going out and complaining, he made himself better. Hardcore players have more skill because they put in the time. The casual player can make his way through the game, beat the missions, maybe even get protector titles if he finds the right PUGs. And that is fine, but when he starts wanting to do DoA, high end PVP, and other "elite" areas, he is no longer casual and if he wants to be able to do those things he needs to do the work.

Antheus · Aug 24, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

maybe even get protector titles if he finds the right PUGs.

PUGging as casual with no titles goes something like this:

Casual: LFG
PUG: What rank are you?
Casual: No rank
PUG: LOL nub lrn2play ktnxbye

Casual play is heroway all the way. Let's not pretend over something - in GW, if you don't have the titles, you're nobody, and never will be anybody.

Quote:

And that is fine, but when he starts wanting to do DoA, high end PVP, and other "elite" areas, he is no longer casual and if he wants to be able to do those things he needs to do the work.

Funny... WoW raiding is deemed hard-core, yet, without epic gear, without any special titles, I've never been turned down from a PUG.

In GW, unless I run exactly cookie cutter build, exactly the right title, exactly the right gear, exactly the right hair color, I better now even ask, since the hate tells will be coming in for two more days.

WoW is casual's dream these days, and GW the worst grind fest there is. In GW, I cannot level a character in one month anymore (titles, that is), it's impossible to get anywhere close to DoA on any character except for the monk which happens to be r5 LB, and with GW:EN, title grind will determine who gets to play or not.

Yes, GW has changed. A lot. But apparently, it's selling well, doing well, so people must like it - who am I to judge what is "the right way".

UW was the original elite area - PUGs had no problem there.
Tombs were overran with first-timers, no problems making PUGs.
The Deep was cleared routinely by PUGs.
But DoA? LFM, LB3 or higher required....

Casual does not mean incompetent. Competent person will need very little time to learn. Those lacking skill need artificial boost from skills which can only be gained through grind.

Quote:

He was cut from his High School basketball team because he wasn't good enough, instead of going out and complaining, he made himself better.

No... why aren't there better basketball players than him? Is every other human being on planet too lazy? Then why does he suck so much? Why didn't he train for 10 more years, and become god? After all, why stop?

Genetics... training merely perfected them.

TabascoSauce · Aug 24, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Good post Antheus.

I'd like to add a gem from a few months ago, a real whopper of a discussion about "skill" in GW. What a load of bunk. This game is about reading comprehension - not skill. Basketball (or name any other professional sport) is based on skill, and you see all the wikis out there for that, right?

These people are simply the "grind and entitlement" yahoos.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Avarre · Aug 24, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Good post Antheus.

I'd like to add a gem from a few months ago, a real whopper of a discussion about "skill" in GW. What a load of bunk. This game is about reading comprehension - not skill. Basketball (or name any other professional sport) is based on skill, and you see all the wikis out there for that, right?

I think it's pretty clear that whatever skill this game takes, you ain't got any. Please stop trying to tell people how the game works when you don't know.

Yichi · Aug 24, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

That line was so good I think I will use it myself. People like to bring up Skill > Time. Guess what, it is actually Skill = Time. Do you think Michael Jordan became the greatest basketball player of all time by not putting in any time? He was cut from his High School basketball team because he wasn't good enough, instead of going out and complaining, he made himself better. Hardcore players have more skill because they put in the time. The casual player can make his way through the game, beat the missions, maybe even get protector titles if he finds the right PUGs. And that is fine, but when he starts wanting to do DoA, high end PVP, and other "elite" areas, he is no longer casual and if he wants to be able to do those things he needs to do the work.

Umm you're way off there buddy. You have to have skill in order to be able to put in the time to learn to develop that skill. Im sorry but no amount of time is going to fix the fact that some, in fact most, people are bad at this game and always will be.

cryptology · Aug 24, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

I've read most of this thread... and I'll say there are some really, really, strong arguments from both sides. But I'll throw a little stick into the spokes:

Who exactly do we deem a casual player? I noticed someone mentioned heros all the way, and I agree with that. A casual player should have the desire to go to DoA (as it seems drops are the only incentive, correct me if I'm wrong), or to kill monsters faster than the next guy, or to get every title in the game. I always figured a casual player plays through the story, and as it's been stated can be done without significant grinding, and then stops or does it again on another character.

Honestly, that's what I started out as. I purchased Nightfall on release and it took me about a month to get through the story whilst completing most of the quests. I wasn't trying to reach level 20 in a week and I, frankly, didn't care what other people had. I honestly didn't care about what some people mention; having one more second of spell time than me, etc. I really only cared about the story and playing with my friends.

I did play the first couple of weekend beta events before Prophecies was released. Yes, it seemed like everyone, casual or hardcore was on a similar playing field. I don't think the OP is arguing from a casual player's standpoint. The OP is arguing from someone who wants more than a casual player, but won't put in the work it takes to do so.

I'm perfectly fine with the concept of getting better things for your grind. In the end, for the casual player, the game does what it should. To go "hard core", you need to put some work in.

SotiCoto · Aug 24, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Bah!

S*ny is to blame for casual gaming.

Much as I wish it would just die out.... it won't.
As such, anything that exists in direct opposition to the casual gamer attitude gets my vote of approval.

*Proud gamer since the days of the Amiga 500*

Nemo the Capitalist · Aug 25, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

dont buy EOTN wait tilll GW 2 comes out sample it then decide whether WOW OR LOTR online

Acolyte of Zero · Aug 25, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

for most of the time, player's skill, and the time they spend playing this game is linked... the more they play, the better they are..

most of the title in this game is meaningless and gives so little advantage over so much effort,
for some title Im not gonna even bother about it, and so will most of u.
but some ppl has so much time, or like to have a goal in game
and in return ofcourse they want something.

salvage % and all that is so tiny we shudnt even cry about it..

Engel the Fallen · Aug 25, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

With only three PvE skills now total allowed on a bar, why bother grinding anyway? Sure it is retarted that most of GWEN's skills are SO OVERPOWERED to people that they need to be restricted, but really you can just skip entire lines of skills.

Engel the Fallen · Aug 25, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

None of these skills is stronger than Lightbringers Gaze was or the lightbringer track. 40% more damage for nukers and an AoE nuke that interrupts was never complained about, and groups were never insisting that nukers be rank 5 or above to join DoA teams that I saw.

And alot of builds already are dump all into Att and put the rest where ever. Bippers are a great example. They certainly are not taking high levels of Soul Reaping because it helps them, they are doing just because they can. Sames goes for death only MM, damage warriors, most Eles and other classes. Sure they get perks for dumping but most of the time they do not need to have one stat at 16 and the second at 13.

Given too mods are more balanced, the game favors tradition builds for the dungeons. I am sure odd multiman builds will be found using the new skills but more likely than not, people will stick to the old combo's with enchantment removal and different monk bars.

TabascoSauce · Aug 25, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I think it's pretty clear that whatever skill this game takes, you ain't got any. Please stop trying to tell people how the game works when you don't know.

Sticks and stones, buddy. Your like or dislike of me does not alter the facts.

Let me restate them for you, so you are clear.

Wouldn't want you to be confused.

Skill in GW is secondary to your build. That is why wikis make such a difference in GW, and are not used in any professional sport. You can consider yourself a better player than I, but irrespective of your opinions if you have a hammer warrior and I have a good anti-warrior necro build, any 1v1 match is a foregone conclusion. Build > Skill. And that equates to reading comprehension for PvE - do two runs through Ruins of Morah with and without "shields up" on a warrior in your party. Big difference, just from reading a wiki. So go ahead and make the case that "skill" can be defined in GW as picking the skills in your build. Not likely. That is why the FotM exists, right? Because someone finds a lucky combo by trial and error, and suddenly every tom, richard, and harry is bulldozing with it. Yeah, check out them FotMs in the basketball wiki. Heh heh.

The grinders, well, they are entitlement monkeys. Good for them, they spent 2800+ hours in a game that in a few years, ANet will pull the plug and everything they did will go up *poof* in a puff of smoke. So what, ANet chooses to reward this same crowd that thinks the game is too easy with an adrenaline based +100 armor party wide? No, no, no, bad idea. Give them a snazzy title, or a fancy, glowing neon rotating sign in-game over their heads that they have no life other than GW.

ANet is simply making the problem worse by giving grinders who breeze through the game, skills that make it even easier.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

darktyco · Aug 25, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

The grinders, well, they are entitlement monkeys. Good for them, they spent 2800+ hours in a game that in a few years, ANet will pull the plug and everything they did will go up *poof* in a puff of smoke. So what, ANet chooses to reward this same crowd that thinks the game is too easy with an adrenaline based +100 armor party wide? No, no, no, bad idea. Give them a snazzy title, or a fancy, glowing neon rotating sign in-game over their heads that they have no life other than GW.

ANet is simply making the problem worse by giving grinders who breeze through the game, skills that make it even easier.

Interesting take on the subject- I never thought of it that way.

I still maintain that having skills that are only obtainable (or that you can only rank up) by grinding away at a title is a broken gameplay mechanic. But, if by just completing the storyline, or side-storylines perhaps (like Sorrow's Furnace), then I am okay with it.

With this mindset, I think Sunspear isn't too bad, Lightbringer is somewhat bad, and Lux/Kurz are terrible. It is also why I haven't bought EotN yet: I'm waiting to see how much PvE grind there will be first.